Un-popular opinion but reality sets in

"bob and john" (bobandjohn) 01/06/2015 at 21:43 • Filed to: None

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To start off with, have a car that is approved by this post. it even looks good!

So. Topic: first cars.

first: let me get something clear. I'm going off the assuming that its the first car, and that you drove mom and dads cars around for...maayyybe a year, on occasions, to and from the store. No real day-to-day, to and from school/work type driving. People who have been driving their parents cars for years and simply haven't had the justification for their own car for a while get a free pass

Anyone looking for a first car and thinks the they are going to get an S-chassis or an old muscle car or a MR-2 or something like that. Sorry, I say that's just stupid.

Your first car isn't going to be something (very) fun. It DEFINITELY shouldn't be fast, it shouldn't be RWD, it shouldn't be stick*. Your first car isn't meant for you to have fun. or to mod. or to do anything exciting with it to be honest with you. its just that. a car. Its meant for you to learn how to deal with traffic on a day to day basis. it should be reasonably cheap, preferably used, under 200 HP, auto, FWD, and made in the past 15 years (so you while A: have places to get parts when you hit it and B: isnt a total rust .
You want something that's reliable. easy to use. Something with 4 doors, as the are seen as less sporty by everyone (that includes insurance companies) Something that's safe because chances of you fucking up while you own that car are pretty (and I don't just mean air bags and what not...you don't want a car that going to snap on you and over steer off the off ramp getting off the highway when its wet...[cough MR-2 cough])

You are learning to drive among others. you have to make it as easy as possible. your are learning to do something you haven't really done before. You have to minimize the risks you take and focus on that task. you don't start learning to ride motorcycles on a 600CC super sports, you don't start learning to shoot on a Ak-47, and you don't learn how to do math by beginning with multiplication. you start by taking on the smaller, simpler stuff ( 250s, .22's, and adding, respectively) and work your way up.

all of this, MR-2, corvair, old mustang, S-chassis. BMWS and mercs. Anything that looks like it can be fun. All terrible ideas. It is going to get you into trouble. Insurance companies will have a field day with you for starters. And you WILL cave into that little voice in your head going: come on, just a little faster...pull that hand break...you know your girlfriend will get a lady boner. top gear said so" and then promptly end up in a ditch or missing a wheel.

A 2000s volvo. a civic. corollas. a BASE Subaru (none of that WRX or STI stuff in here). a BASE lancer. Thats the kinda stuff you should be looking at. Bonus if its a wagon. Another bonus is its AWD.

/end old man rant. (even though I'm only 20...)

EDIT: also, the FWD was more for snow then anything else. live in canada, there is no where here you can live where you dont get snow.

*Unless you live somewhere where driving stick is the norm. Such as Europe.

Dusty Ventures > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 21:53

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I disagree with some of your parameters (for example, manual transmission: totally okay so long as you've got someone providing proper instruction), but I'm with you on the general sentiment. Freshly licensed teen + POWERRRRRRR = bad times (usually). Hell, I misbehaved more than enough with an old Dodge Caravan.

On a semi-related note, as a mod I really hope this doesn't get FP'd, because I don't have a mop big enough to clean up the storm this would cause :)

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 21:54

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My first car laughs in your general direction. There is no meant to have, or not meant to have. Everyone is different, and has unique circumstances. Opponauts in particular are more inclined to be able to handle an interesting first car. They are more knowledgable than the normal beginner driver and more importantly they care more about their car. Why shouldn't they drive something they like?

bob and john > Dusty Ventures 01/06/2015 at 21:56

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ehh. I'm still of the opinion that for your first year, take the auto and learn traffic patterns and what not. THEN pick up the stick.

then again, this is coming from the guy who got his motorcycle permit before his car. and is already on his third bike (technically)

QuickCharisma > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 21:56

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This is my first car. I'm 18, and it's registered and insured in my name. It is RWD (gasp!) but it also has part-time 4WD (which is broken, gotta fix it). It's auto, has 190 horsepower (just under the limit) and was made in 1998, so it's just over 15 years old but still very easy to find parts for. The parts are also very cheap!

Textured Soy Protein > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 21:58

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My first car when I got my license in 1998 was my dad's old 1990 Acura Legend LS Coupe. Like this, but gold.

It was fwd, automatic transmission, under 200 hp and made within the past 15 years (at the time).

It was actually a really fun car though. Super low beltline, thin pillars, huge windows, great steering. Anything with boxed fender flares and that spoiler sticking off the trunk had to be at least sort of fun.

I loved driving that car, and got into plenty of trouble with it.

bob and john > QuickCharisma 01/06/2015 at 21:58

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followed for oppo.

you get a pass on the RWD since its 4wd.

if anything id be more worried about rust...i'm assuming you live in a no-snow state?

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:00

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Lets see..

RWD

Made in '94

Folds in half in an accident

One maybe working airbag

160 horsepower, but 230 ft-lbs of torque

4-speed auto

Reliable and cheap to buy parts for.

Annnd, I'll be replacing it with a manual BMW made in the 80s with over 200 horsepower eventually.

bob and john > Textured Soy Protein 01/06/2015 at 22:00

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did those have that odd-ball 5 cylinder?

there is ONE vigor still kicking aorund my parent neighboorhood....that car has been there for the past 8 years...I've only ever seen it parked, but it clearly is used...

QuickCharisma > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:02

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Nope, no snow here. The only snow we get is on those mountains in the background. I haven't taken it to the snow this winter, but I've taken it to Amargosa, Shoshone, and I've driven it in Las Vegas traffic (I love it for some reason). There's also no salt on these roads ever so the underbody won't have rust. I just have a couple little oil leaks but I'm focussing on brakes first and then my A-frames and my alignment. There's a bit of work to be done on this car but it's going to be relatively cheap since I can find a lot of OEM ACDelco parts on Amazon for less than $50.

bob and john > Twinpowermeansoneturbo 01/06/2015 at 22:02

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the temptation to do stupid shit is too great. I had do LOTS of stupid shit in that old volvo. (jumps, 180 hand brakes turns if i need to turn around and it was raining, etc etc) and that was a freaking volvo.

also, snow state? thats what the FWD was mainly for.

Textured Soy Protein > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:05

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The 5-cylinder was in the Vigor and the 2.5TL.

The 1st-gen Legend had a 2.5 liter, 151 hp V6 in 1986-87, and the '88-'90 had a 2.7 liter V6 making 161 hp.

The same basic 2.7 V6 showed back up in the 1995-97 Accord V6, with a new intake manifold which bumped power up to 170 hp.

bob and john > QuickCharisma 01/06/2015 at 22:06

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no-snow explains the no-rust.

I wish I lived in a no-snow place. I want to ride my motorcycle year round....

Louros > Twinpowermeansoneturbo 01/06/2015 at 22:06

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Opponauts in particular are more inclined to be able to handle an interesting first car. They are more knowledgable than the normal beginner driver and more importantly they care more about their car.

This is so far beyond the truth it's not even funny. I've seen so much stupid shit posted here by people who think they know what they're doing or think they know how to drive. This very false sense of confidence leads to making mistakes.

Louros > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:07

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Good post. More people kids here need to understand this.

bob and john > Louros 01/06/2015 at 22:09

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I will also completely admit i was of the same mind set....90's M3, or maybe a B5 S4...those I wanted as first cars...

as of right now, looks like first car (going to be bought at the end of uni...so 4 years from now) is going to be a BRZ....I'll be 24 by then...and with 8 years of street motorcycles by then XD

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:10

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You aren't going to like what I have then... Basically everything you said a first car shouldn't be...

bob and john > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 22:11

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well you have the last 3 good....snow state?

as for later on cars: go for it. but for the first car, well, you read what I wrote.

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:11

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When it comes down to it, doing stupid shit in an old Volvo is not measurably safer than doing stupid shit in a MR-2. I never did any of that stuff in my car because it was my prized possession. If I had an old Volvo I wouldn't have cared at all about what happened to it. The bottom line for me is that you can't make broad sweeping gestures like this. There's some kids who can handle a "fun" car right off the bat, and there are others that can't. But when it comes down to it, it isn't a should or shouldn't situation. The kids who are motivated to buy interesting cars shouldn't be steered otherwise. If they can't handle them, they will find out soon enough. That's how you learn.

bob and john > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST 01/06/2015 at 22:11

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let me guess...03 mach 1?

Jedidiah > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:12

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This is a whole lot of bs. A corvair or old muscle car isn't exactly expensive to insure.

This sounds like a matter of responsibilty to me; if the kid gets it for free, he's going to be irresponsible. If he has to work for the car, he will be proud of enough to take care of it and drive it responsibly.

I bought my rwd, v8 muscle car for $100 of my money and restored it myself. Do you think I drive it like an idiot?

bob and john > Twinpowermeansoneturbo 01/06/2015 at 22:14

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uhh, just saying, 01 volvo >>>> safer then Mr2....it only did stupid shit as I asked....not because of physics.

and dont get me wrong, i'm not saying everyone drive camrys.

but for the FIRST car? you read it. 2nd car and so on? go nuts.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:15

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I don't think Missouri is considered a snow state, but it does snow here in winter time.

Most of my driving is done in cars with 250-300 horsepower, automatic and FWD/RWD, but still, I know the risks of being stupid. You think your invincible until your girlfriend uncontrollably slides an E36 BMW into a tree with you in the passenger seat.

bob and john > Jedidiah 01/06/2015 at 22:16

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problem with old corvair and mucsle car:

NO safety nets (ABS and so on)
NO structural safety: (LOL 19080';s crash tests)
and the corvair: mmm, Rear motor placement...pendulm effect...= crashed corvair.

I'm not even concerned about the price so much as the driving dynamics and and more you controlling the car VS you fighting to control it.

Spaceball-Two > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:19

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My first was a 1984 Ranger much like the one below. This was pre digital photos (old man? pfffttttt) It was a fleet truck from a cable company that the foreman would drive around to the different sites. Someone sprayed it Napa blue and I bought it for $450. Total bare bones with 2.8l v6 3sp. I beat it death as a new young drive. Same with the 85 Jimmy afterwords.

My kid (due in July) will get a something to beat on before they learn it's more than just passing some half assed state mandated test.

Fookin' Prawns > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:19

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Hah, my first car was a 2004 Prius. Checks all the boxes-slow, predictable, recently made, and FWD. Plus it was cheap to run, which was great since I had to pay for my own gas. Great basic commuter car! But for the second car, all bets are off.

I'd like to add that a first car should have 4 doors. More room for people and is usually less sporty.

bob and john > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 22:22

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hmmm....wonder how that happened....

as an aside, I actually have a story up here somewhere about the time I crashed a motorcycle and rode away with no damage to me or the bike...

Vimto > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:22

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My first car:

1999 Suzuki Esteem automatic, slow, rattled a lot

Parents bought me once I got my license:

2011 Kia Forte EX automatic

I got a job, two years later I purchased this with my own $ and gave the Forte back to my parents:

2007 Mercury Grand Marquis

I have had a couple RWD + rain close calls but I'm glad I didn't have a (albeit heavy and slow) V8 powered RWD vehicle as my first.

bob and john > Fookin' Prawns 01/06/2015 at 22:23

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oh, I didnt mention that? thought I did....

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:23

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Yup. Got ridiculously lucky finding this car.

I will say, I've done worse things with my Mom's Kia Cadenza then my car. Not because I was being stupid, but because in a modern refined sedan like that you can't really tell the difference between say 70 and 90. My car makes it easy to tell the difference between 40 and 50. And having a yellow, loud Mustang makes it easy to not want to do stupid things because it's a cop magnet.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:24

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Black ice, RWD, summer tires, and inexperience. The car was totaled, but her dad fixed it and still drives it.

bob and john > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST 01/06/2015 at 22:26

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liek I said: as your very first car: i think its stupid.

if you have a lot of experiance driving your parents car or just being on the road in general (eg, i have about 65K of driving/street-motorcycle riding in 3-4 years. dad wants to get me a BRX as a graduation present assuming I make it out of uni....

Rock Bottom > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:27

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I'm with Dusty: a stick for your first car is a good move. I drove the wheels off my 1984 Danger Ranger (2.3, stick, and a family of mice living in the seat). It was complete junk, it didn't always idle well and it was a bear to restart when hot. I learned all the lessons all at once. Hill-starts (don't stall, it might not restart), traffic spotting (the mirrors would move in a cross wind), momentum management (not much power), planning the shit out of passes (not much power), planning in parking lots (manual steering), and god-awful in the snow. I mean, terrible. Even with weight in the bed. Remember, you learn best when you're young. Also, everything after that Ranger has been like driving a Bentley! I mean, everything is nice compared to that! I have such an appreciation for cars with intact floorboards these days (and I haven't driven that truck in almost 20 years now).

Also, you're doing it right with bikes. I think everyone should have to ride a motorcycle for 3 years before ever driving a car. The idiots would immediately kill themselves off, thus "fixing" the shallow end of the gene pool. The survivors would have amazing situation awareness and an appreciation for the safety of the people around them. Boom. Solutions.

bob and john > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 22:27

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....annndddd thats EXACTLY why I wouldnt recommend one as a first car. (summers in winter? come on... seriously?)

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:30

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I should mention, her dad's a total fuckwit when it comes to cars and basic things. He managed to kill a Camry at 120k miles. The engine in the BMW is squeaking. And he refuses to get my girlfriend's Taurus an alignment.

If I would have known it had summer tires on it, we would have taken my mom's car.

bob and john > Rock Bottom 01/06/2015 at 22:30

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I actually wrote a post about that [riding a motorcycle before learning to drive] a while back. got flamed pretty hard from what I remember.

I gave my reasons as to why I think the first car should be an auto. if you agree or disagree, thats up to you. (though, i will admit everyone should take lesson in how to drive stick...that recent post about some kid wanting to by a STI and not knowing who to drive stick comes to mind)

bob and john > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 22:32

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He managed to kill a Camry at 120k miles.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:33

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Oil starvation... Didn't have the timing belt replaced... Basically no coolant... Yeah.

BrownMiataDieselWagon > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:34

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LOL my first car: 90s 6-cylinder YJ Wrangler, rust everywhere, manual transmission missing all synchros and 2nd gear, convertible top that leaked, RWD with broken transfer case, minimal crash protection, 10 mpg.

Sometimes you gotta work with what you're given. Not only did I learn how to drive in traffic in it, I also learned a lot about how cars work, how to fix things, and it actually made me a better and more careful driver because of how sh*tty of a car it was.

mazda616 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:35

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I was raised by my grandparents, obviously years after they had raised their own children. They were old and tired and didn't much enjoy schlepping me back and forth to assorted teenage things like after school activities and the county fair and to the movies with my friends. As a result, I had a car a full year before I had my license. And the day I got my license, they were like "Okay, bye, drive yourself places now."

Pictured: My first car ('92 Beretta 2.2 auto - slow as hell and cheap enough for 16-year-old me to possibly crash). I didn't wreck it, by the way. Go me.

bob and john > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 22:36

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Jedidiah > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:36

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When are you ever fighting for control over your car when are driving responsibly? Never, because you are aware of it's limits.

The only times you are not in control are when you make a decision in poor judgement or when there is an unavoidable freak accident like a meteorite.

If it's raining and your corvair's tires aren't so great and you do in fact value your safety, are you going to drive it like the road was dry? No; you will pull over and wait. If you absolutely have to drive; then slow down and brake earlier than normally.

All you have to be is anything but stupid, it's not that hard. A little smack on the side of the head and a does of reality would do a lot of people good in this world. "Oh, you crashed your cool car because you were driving like an idiot; too bad, that's called a consequence."

A worn-out, cheap fwd ecobox ain't gonna have great driving dynamics either; you'll still wind up off the road if your entry speed is too fast. Sure the entry speed will be different for different cars, but you why the fuck are you trying to reach that limit on public roads?

The safety gimmicks only garauntee your safety below 35 mph — that is the maximum survivable impact speed the human body can sustain. Sure; they increase your chances of survival, but only in scenarios similar to which they are tested in. You risk your life every time you go above 35. Don't increase that risk by driving like an idiot. In the real world, the best safety feature is good brakes; they reduce the likelyhood of unavoidable accidents occuring.

The only older cars that should draw safety concerns are those made before 1968; they have single pot master cylinders. If you lose one brake line; you loose all braking pressure. You know how you fix that? Buy a new master cylinder and brake lines before you go on a long trip.

Obey the law, use good judgement and it will not matter what you are driving.

bob and john > BrownMiataDieselWagon 01/06/2015 at 22:37

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I agreed that sometimes it required to work with what your given..

but uhh...dam.

bob and john > Jedidiah 01/06/2015 at 22:38

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Obey the law, use good judgement

that the problem... most dont.

whatisthatsound > Louros 01/06/2015 at 22:38

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I agree, just because you follow or love something doesn't mean you are better at it than anyone else if you don't have experience. I don't care what people get as their first car though, mostly because 18 year olds will let you drive the car their parents bought them faster than some of the guys I race with will.

Sportwägen, Driver Of The Red Sportwagen > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:39

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I <3 my first car

All 3200 lbs of it! Even with its 140HP and 236tq! The MANUAL TRANSMISSION provides a rush of excitement in all gears!

I started driving on it when it was 3 months old, it is now 3 years and 10 months old, never been in a wreck, fender bender, etc, and has 82.5k miles on it, of which I have driven about 65k of...

Let me remind you I am only 17 (18 in March) so I am extremely lucky and "spoiled" by most people's definitions, but I actually take care of my car and treat it right ;)

dogisbadob > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:40

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I really like that S40/V40.

But really, any car is a good first car, because you're just happy to have your own car!

Jedidiah > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:41

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They will if they respect their machine.

Don't buy an ingrateful teenager ANY car until they mature; they don't deserve it. Problem solved.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:43

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The C4 is my first car. It's unsafe in an accident, it will destroy the rear tires, you have to baby the throttle in the rain, it has a long-throw manual with notchy gates and a heavy clutch, the engine puts out 330 lb/ft at approximately 12 RPM, there's no ABS if you just smash down the brake in an emergency, and you'll do damage with it easily if you drive like a jackass. So I don't drive it like a jackass. I understand hormones, arrogance, and inexperience are an unsavory combination but I'm fine with waiting to satiate the temptation of hoonage for autocross/track days. If I don't threshold brake I'll slide into something in a panic stop, and if shifting isn't second nature it will be distracting (though not as distracting as the other side of the recklessness spectrum having a hand free to text). So you practice, make yourself aware of risks and drive accordingly, and value the importance of attentiveness and practicing more (and a ton, in every scenario possible, beforehand). I'll have to disagree because this seems like a one-size-fits-all solution to a more nuanced issue and in part because I'm breaking all of your rules.

bob and john > Jedidiah 01/06/2015 at 22:43

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you and I both know that doesnt happen...

(and said bratty teen would just buy himself a car..)

5-Speed Gangsta > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:44

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Can't say I agree with you. Maybe it's partly because my first car is a 20 year old, RWD, manual BMW but that's not completely it. I would never do stupid things in my car because I appreciate it. I value the way my car looks, the way it feels, and the relationship I have with my car as it's owner. I don't feel tempted to perform handbrake turns or speeding in my driving because I fear that I could injure somebody else or damage my prized possession: my car. I figure if I'm going to have to learn car control and experience driving in day to day conditions, it may as well be in a vehicle I love and hope to own for many years to come.

bob and john > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/06/2015 at 22:45

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in part because I'm breaking all of your rules.

at least you admit it :P

I'm assuming you had some years of driving in you mom/dads car before, yes?

this was right at the start:

People who have been driving their parents cars for years and simply haven't had the justification for their own car for a while get a free pass

whatisthatsound > Fookin' Prawns 01/06/2015 at 22:45

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On the flip side according to the CDC, more room for that equals more distractions. Only one of my my friends in high school was alone during a car accident, because he was rear ended by a drunk driver. Every single accident besides that had multiple teens and twenty somethings in the car with them. More seats is more dangerous because more friends equals more stupid ideas and peer pressure. My chevy astro had only two seats because I took the bench seats out, although that was for another reason, but we can say it was for safety.

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesa…

Jedidiah > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:46

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And if he wrecks it; he'll have to pay for that too.

That seems like a life lesson to me.

"I did something stupid, so I probably shouldn't do it again."

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:47

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There's worse cars parents have bought for their kids. I've seen a few with brand new 2015 Mustang GT's already and even a GT500 at 18. You would be surprised though, if you have someone who knows what they're driving and can respect it they will treat it very well. Very rare.

I've actually been driving since 15. Didn't get the car until 17. It's weird thinking about that now.

Justin Hughes > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:48

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My first car was one of these:

1982 Pontiac 6000LE. It meets all of your qualifications (it was 10 years old when I got it).

One thing I'll say in favor of a stick shift is that it forces the driver to pay more attention to what they're doing. This could be a good thing for a new driver, who could be easily distracted. Having to shift gears may also help prevent any hanky panky while in motion...

bob and john > 5-Speed Gangsta 01/06/2015 at 22:49

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thats what I said about my motorcycle too.

4 days later I rode it off the road (crash) got back on the road, went home and thought about what I did wrong (first year of riding at the time) (miraculously, neither me OR the bike got a scratch in that incident...there is a write up here somewhere)

bob and john > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST 01/06/2015 at 22:50

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OH GOD YEA (at the first point) here is my guy: time: 2012

parents bought him a used 2011 CLS550 AWD. 2 month in, crashes it doing 120 in a residential neighborhood.

what do parents do? buy him a NEW (2013) CLS 550 AWD

bob and john > Justin Hughes 01/06/2015 at 22:53

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that auto/manual seems to be the most contested point here.

I see where people are coming from...but I still think for a first, better to have an auto...dont need to learn about clutch biting point and all that fun stuff in your first car. focus on traffic patterns and what not.

however. I am in favour of everyone taking stick-shift lessons.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:55

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Where I grew up (and learned to drive), there was no such thing as traffic patterns. The nearest traffic lights were nearly an hour's drive away. I've driven 30 miles down the most major highway in the area without seeing a single other vehicle on the road. What then?

bob and john > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 01/06/2015 at 22:56

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yea, I guess. (I live in toronto, so yea, we have traffic patterns here....)

Justin Hughes > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:57

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And I see your point too. After all, I did do it your way!

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:58

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I had the perfect first car: a Geo Metro. 65hp of fury.

Rock Bottom > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 22:58

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Yeah, everyone is different and I know that I am a "sink-or-swim" kind of guy, so I understand that my viewpoint is probably not acceptable to the mainstream! I just like the idea of filtering out the people that are most likely to hurt me before they have a chance to, but I guess that makes me selfish so whatevs.

Either way, I support your view that motorcycle before car is a good idea. If people can't handle that, then screw em. The reality is that you would learn so many great lessons in an incredibly short period of time... in one generation we could completely change the way our roads are used. People would return to attentiveness, politeness, and efficiency. But people like you and me are wrong for trying to make the roads safer and better and that makes me sad.

bob and john > Justin Hughes 01/06/2015 at 22:59

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(cough...I didnt.....first time in traffic was on a motorcycle)

Local Miata Bro > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:01

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I agree with you on everything but the manual part. This is my first car FWD hatch, 106 hp, 5 speed. My family had only owned one automatic at the time. Both of my parents love rowing their own gears but mom has knee problems which led to the auto. Long story short my dad requires that your first car is a stick but I had been driving one for 9 months before getting my license.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:03

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I slightly disagree with a few things. I feel that driving stick should be encouraged among teens, as it makes them more attentive. I say this as a 16YO with a car with a 6 M/T

Also, I don't think the car should be something junky. I am lucky enough to have a paid off 2012 GLI autobahn as my first car, and I have in the past 5mo/6000mi of driving had just one close call, and that was caused by someone who tried overtaking illegally, and forced me to use all of the stopping power my right foot and those brakes could muster.

I also drove every day to school while I had my permit with my mom, and then after school went shopping or to tennis with her as well. Of the 20,450 miles on my mom's 2012 Jetta SE, I probably put about 2000 on there while I had my permit for that year.

I am by no means a good driver, since I lack experience still. I do know that I am much better than a lot of my peers, even though I do have a slight case of lead food on occasion.

bob and john > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 01/06/2015 at 23:05

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I am lucky enough to have a paid off 2012 GLI autobahn as my first car,

I'm going to spam you with this comment next time I catch you bitching about that car XD

jokes aside, i get where everyone is coming from. but living 15 minutes from traffic clogged toronto makes me think for a FIRST car, its not a great idea. Though i do think everyone should drive a manual at one point or another.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:06

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For around two years IIRC before license. That gave the chance to drive at first in a massive parking lot for a bit, then on normal roads in the dry during the day (in the rain and at night thereafter), then the highway, then with 3 pedals and finally in the snow with RWD. It's a process that can move at different speeds. I don't really have many friends and concerns as most other people my age and driving is the one thing I really do take seriously. I spend my money maintaining my car. That's not to say that my parents were open to the idea of a car without any modern safety features, but good brakes combined with power to get out of trouble, good visibility, good grip, and good steering mean that I've avoided accidents that would've been inevitable in a worn out econobox. I paid for the car, I keep it in good repair, and I actively keep risks low. The one thing that truly excites me is an interesting car that I can grow into, and while I'm not the most upbeat person in the world I've found something that makes my day a little more interesting. Perhaps it's unsuitable, but I spend far too much time worrying about how acceptable of a person I am to not have some confidence in one regard.

bob and john > Local Miata Bro 01/06/2015 at 23:07

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again, I see the point. but living close to traffic clogged toronto makes me think for driving there, for the first time, better an auto for you can focus more on the traffic patterns and so on.

though i do agree everyone should drive a stick at some early point in their driving career

Local Miata Bro > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:09

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Your point makes sense for non car people, but by the time I got my license I had learned St. Louis' traffic patterns and all of that jazz.

bob and john > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/06/2015 at 23:10

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so you had the experience and some (albeit brief) training and progression.

your fine. might have jumped a bit fast, but meh. Seeing as I still dont have a car to call my own and wont for years, I cant say how fast I would have moved in your place.

bob and john > Local Miata Bro 01/06/2015 at 23:11

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driving without a permit? tsk tsk tsk


but you get what I mean. even for car people, toronto can get a little..hectic.

Dsscats > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:13

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Sorry, but as long as you get something somewhat reliable, the rest just involves being responsible. If you are a responsible driver, you won't have 95% of these problems.....

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:13

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actually, I think driving stick in traffic is the best! It tests you man! Trust me, I'm a fit guy, but after 30 minutes of stop-start traffic, it starts to get to ya! And when it does, well that's when I know that my hobby of driving is worth it! the car's making me hurt. it's making me invest my body in to it, and that's why I love my rowboat GLI

And yeah, I bitched about her too much... No more bitching about lil' Red. She's allright in my books :)

Local Miata Bro > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:13

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In Missouri one can get their automotive permit at 15, I got mine on my birthday. Fun fact you also don't have to take driver's ed either

Fookin' Prawns > whatisthatsound 01/06/2015 at 23:15

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That's true, but under current laws kids aren't allowed to drive others around until a year after their licenses are granted. Yeah, people are going to skirt the law, but if they follow it they'll be less distracted and have a bit more car around them if they do get into an accident.

bob and john > Dsscats 01/06/2015 at 23:18

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and what 16-18 year old driver is responsible all the time? lets be honest here.

sony1492 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:18

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You forgot to include that, your assuming these teens live in cities, a few of parameters seem to stem from this.

bob and john > sony1492 01/06/2015 at 23:19

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the only one i was really thinking off was the manual one actually...

which other did you think were from the cities?

whatisthatsound > Fookin' Prawns 01/06/2015 at 23:21

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I got my license at 16 and 6 months. that was still 3 years and 6 months until I hit 20 so all of those years are high risk with multiple passengers. More car doesn't mean a better thing either. More car means more weight, harder to regain control, more damage during a crash.

marshknute > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:30

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My first car was a 95' Miata, and it singlehandedly proves every single one of your arguments wrong. It was the easiest car in the entire world to learn...well...anything about driving.

First time driving stick? My 95' Miata had the most forgiving clutch and most responsive gearbox of any car I've driven. I've sampled some of Ferrari, Audi, BMW, and Porsche's finest, and none of them were as easy, approachable, or rewarding to drive as that little Miata.

Want to learn how to heel-toe downshift? My Miata had perfect pedal placement for heel toe, as well as the aforementioned awesome gearbox.

Live in a snowy arctic tundra? My 95' Miata was a fucking champ in the snow. No joke. Seriously, no joke. I watched Golf GTI's and X-drive BMWs spinning their wheels into curbs while my little Miata tracked its way through the snow like a tank...on all-weather tires...with the top down...doing slow and controlled 10mph power-oversteer drifts.

Want to learn to drive fast without killing yourself? Ahem...my 95' Miata is THE FUCKING POSTER CHILD of "slow car fast." There is no better car (past, present, or future) that will ever match an NA Miata for its learnability and driveability. It's an underpowered RWD car. It won't power oversteer because it can't break the rear tires loose ; at most, you feel the chassis get upset, but you can't crash because you can't break traction. It's the zero-consequences hoonmobile.

bob and john > marshknute 01/06/2015 at 23:36

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I said car.

not mildly mobile toaster (kidding)

also, i'm not saying dont learn all that stuff. lord no.

but learn it AFTER you have learned how to behave in traffic.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:37

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Even as someone who would never have children, I can say with some confidence that I wouldn't let my kid have a car without a driver's airbag, with much power, or with more than two doors. It would be a Miata or Mini Cooper with a stick, or something comparable. I'm a boring person without the nerve to pull any dangerous stuff in my car even if I lacked complete driving sensibility and, unfortunately, it shows. I still think you have a good message; if only lawmakers would realize that not everybody who wants a license should have one. I'd advocate for a multiple-year driving program as they have in Norway.

bob and john > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/06/2015 at 23:40

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frankly, i think everyone should be mandated to ride motorcycles for the first 3 years.

lots of bonuses:

all of the morons get killed off quick
people learn to not take safety for granted
they learn how to pay attention
those who dont have the confidence and really should be driving are prevented from driving in the first place

and think of how much space it would save with all the morons dead and almost everyone on motorcycles.

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:50

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Well that isn't the brightest thing to do. If I had a kid who did that they can say goodbye to getting any sort of decent car next.

Was he or anyone else hurt wrecking at that kind of speed?

Milky > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:56

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I kinda agree?

(same as this, but with more rust)

I mean my first car had 4 doors, wasn't fast, was cheap to insure and reliable. BUT being mainly RWD means I drifted it a lot. When I eventually messed up and put it in a ditch though, I could put it in 4wd and get myself out. Not to mention that I was going to off-road-ing things all of the time.

If you get something beige you could stifle someones interest in cars. ^ That thing took me through sand dunes, mud bogs and countless trail rides through forests. I genuinely learned A LOT about car control in it and that wouldn't of happened in a beige-wonder sedan.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:56

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I would get behind that. Owning and using a car is far too easy, in my opinion. Just let stuff break until it's no good, and drive like a moron until you get in a crash. Then your airbag will go off and you'll be fine—no one is concerned with the other person. Traffic is ridiculous, but what do you expect when there's more than one child to every adult and almost all of them will be out there driving like a moron without consequences? For those three years, you wouldn't be a threat to other motorists' safety and your own will be determined by your own decisions. You want to drive a car? Make the sacrifice of having to ride through the rain, heat, etc. and then see if you can earn the privilege. Driving used to be a luxury, a source of entertainment, and a point of pride. Now it's too easy to not care.

sony1492 > bob and john 01/06/2015 at 23:59

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Cars in the city gotta be able to withstand a lot of stress on the engine daily (onramps) and either need ample power or need to be new enough to handle it (15 year thing). But a country car may not be stressed engine wise and wouldn't need to be new.

bob and john > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST 01/07/2015 at 00:05

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nope. street leading out of his neighboor hood had a left right kink going over a hill. he took it going 120, bacl end got loose on the left, he over corrected and went into the ditch on the right. whole car got bent like a banana.

he was fine, as were his 2 high as hell buddies in the car. scared a few rabbits though

bob and john > sony1492 01/07/2015 at 00:06

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ahhhh, ok.

the 15 year thing was more so that you still have the parts to fix it, but its not SO old that its decomposed to a complete pile of junk.

bob and john > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/07/2015 at 00:07

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I did a write up on a while ago...like a year or so....wasnt that well met. ah well, cest la-vie

bob and john > Milky 01/07/2015 at 00:08

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I tried to not say beige and say: not sporty...

our volvo wasnt sporty...wasnt all that beige either.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > bob and john 01/07/2015 at 00:10

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Well, I'll agree and disagree with you. I'm in the same boat as JayZAyEighty, except my C4 is an auto and ABS. So, as he said: its unsafe, has mountains of torque, will obliterate the rear tires, etc. Now, normally, as you said, in most teens, this is a 100% no-go. However, Jedidiah and JayZAyEighty bring up some fantastic points, and I completely agree with them. If you have the maturity to handle such a vehicle, respect the vehicle, and understand the consequences if you do something foolish, then I see no issue with owning a car outside of these guidelines. As Jedidiah said, if I purchased my own vehicle and wrench on myself, then why would I drive it like an idiot? Its something I'm proud of, and I treat it as it should be treated. If I spend nearly $1k on new tires (which I did), then why would I want to burn them off? The way I see it, you can be a jackass in ANY car. As a matter of fact, I'm quite sure that anyone will be much more irresponsible in a $600 P.O.S. econobox than in their Pride & Joy that they saved up their entire life for. I have quite a few friends who have wrecked their FWD Econobox in a matter of a couple months, simply because they were irresponsible and careless. Meanwhile, nothing has happened to me or the other kids who bought supposedly "unacceptable" first cars. Respect, maturity, and responsibility is the key.

On the other hand, I COMPLETELY understand what you are saying. The parents of one of my best friends bought him a '94 Mustang GT Convertible for his 16th birthday. Since he was immature and lacked respect for the car, he beat the living hell out of all the time. Drove it like a jackass, didn't pay attention to problems, and was massively cocky. Three months later, lo and behold: he wrapped the Mustang around a tree while trying to drift in the rain. Granted, the thing was a huge P.O.S. and was probably going to die soon anyways, but still. It is a prime example of what you are talking about.

So, the way I view it, if you have the respect and maturity to handle a higher-caliber car, and you understand the consequences that can happen, I see no issue. If you are immature, irresponsible, and cannot understand the consequences that can happen, you are probably better off getting something along your guidelines.

bob and john > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 01/07/2015 at 00:13

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it all boils down to how mature you are.

and i'm sorry, but 99% of people 16-20 are in no way shape or form as mature as they think they are. (myself included...had my first off with the motorcycle 3months in...quickly learned to respect it and take things slow...)

Milky > bob and john 01/07/2015 at 00:15

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Well Volvo has some nice FWD sedans but everything else you listed was beige so I took it upon myself to say it for you.

"a civic. corollas. a BASE Subaru (none of that WRX or STI stuff in here). a BASE lancer. "

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > bob and john 01/07/2015 at 00:17

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Completely agreed. And sorry if that last post was a little rant-y, that's my bad. I sometimes type more than I think I am.

bob and john > Milky 01/07/2015 at 00:18

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i'll give you the camry and rolla. ehh on the subaru and the lancer. more or less the meaner counter parts with a LOT less HP.

marshknute > bob and john 01/07/2015 at 00:19

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So your article isn't about first cars, it's about the first cars you drive. Huge difference.

When I got my license in High School, I drove my parents' extra car, an old beater pickup. That was the vehicle where I learned to drive in traffic on my own without parent supervision.

But there is a huge, HUGE, HUGE difference between my parents' extra car and my first car. You treat the two completely differently depending on whether or not you have your own money invested in it.

bob and john > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 01/07/2015 at 00:19

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oh, no worries :P

I completely expected to get 100% flamed and get LOADS of *my first car was a ferari, you are full of shit* posts...but it seems most of oppo is not here...something else happened on a post today?

JasonStern911 > marshknute 01/07/2015 at 00:19

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Preach on.

Some day when I have a son (fingers crossed), a Miata or something contemporary-equivalent will hopefully be his first car. If you want them to take driving seriously, then giving them a soul-crushing car won't help that - instilling good Oppo values will.

I question that OP really rode a motorcycle prior to owning a car due to the "must be an auto for your first car" mandate. It took me ten minutes to learn to drive a stick. Why? Because I had been riding motorcycles for years. Learning to work the clutch on a bike took much longer, but that was done off-road without the risk of traffic. But that's probably part of the problem - my dad took the time to teach me to ride a motorcycle requiring a clutch. Most parents don't do that. And teaching the kid to slide in the snow and how to put cables on for proper traction is something I actually look forward to.

So yeah. If you want to be a hands-off parent, follow OP's advice. Otherwise, hope that you have taught your kid well. Do you think Fangio, Schumacher, Loeb, Grönholm, Vettel, Röhrl, McRae, Senna, Stewart, etc. all started out with low horsepower, front wheel drive sedans?